Going Infinite - Jenny breaks Arkham Horror

Card draw simulator
Odds: 0% – 0% – 0% more
Derived from
None. Self-made deck here.
Inspiration for
None yet

Skeith · 316

Introduction

This deck started out as a thought exercise in terms of overachievement and what can be done with it.

It ended in what I would like to call a "true infinite deck".

In the -class there has always been something of an overachiever archetype in the making. But I have never seen it working completely yet. Decks like Keen Eye Leo, Boss Killer used some elements of overachieving to do single large rounds. However without recursion, such combos were basically one hit wonders. One still needed a solid deck besides to cover every other round there one didn't combo. Due to that most combo decks are who have the necessary recursion to do combos for as long as they can fund them.

This deck changes that and let's use overachievements every round and manages a positive action and cash feedback while doing so.

It's mainly intended for solo play on normal or hard, but due to how the deck works, there is no reason why it shouldn't work on expert.


What this Deck Does

This deck does it all. Infinite resources, infinite cards, infinite actions. It breaks the game mechanics on so many levels it isn't even funny anymore. You just need to get 10 XP first.

  • Disable the chaos bag by playing Premonition before taking all tests.
  • Disable action economy by generating 3 new actions for every action spent on a skill test.
  • Disable the encounter deck by never ending the turn.
  • Generate + 7 ressources with each test taken, providing more than enough funds to routinely beat even the highest possible difficulty rating of 25.
  • Recur every important skill or event card after each test taken by drawing 10 cards every time.
  • Remove any thread from the board by consistently overachieving by 5.

Before going into the nuts and bolts of the deck, we should discuss overachieving in general. Also many of the cards in this deck may seem odd at first, but always remember that action economy does not really apply to this deck. Once the ball is rolling, nothing can touch you. So cards are mostly picked to serve specific early game purposes.


What's Going on? Overachievement and Combo

Overachiement is a combo archetype. Otherwise know as succeeding by X, overachieving is done by overshooting a skill check by a set amount to reap benefits.
The most commonly known cards of the archetype are Scavenging, Quick Thinking and "Watch this!" among others. While the former gives a benefit after a test was done well, the later two modify the skill check itself. They all have in common that you get nothing for only succeeding but rather reward you for reaching a certain threshold while doing so. Common thresholds for oversuccess are:

+1 "Watch this!", .41 Derringer +1 DMG
+2 Quick Thinking, Switchblade, Pickpocketing, Lucky Cigarette Case, .41 Derringer, Cheap Shot, Slip Away, all upgraded core set color skills
+3 .41 Derringer +1 action
+X All In

Not included are items that retain charge by oversuccess, as they add no effects but rather retain charge to make the item/spell work longer.

Most of the mentioned cards come with the added benefit of being multiplicative by means of Double or Nothing and thus allow the monstrous combo plays is known for. You never want to combo without Double or Nothing if you can help it. The tempo gain is just that huge.

Calculated Risk

As combos tend to involve an "all eggs, one basked" approach you dont really want your combo to fizzle by underperforming the threshold. The threshold should be calculated with 100% success in mind (without ):

(Test difficulty x 2) + highest modifier in the bag + desired overachievement threshold = Target skill rating

Example

  • We Double or Nothing two copies of Quick Thinking (overachieves on +2) on a 2-shroud location Burglary on normal (highest modifier assumed -4).

    (2 x 2) + 4 + 2 = 10

    We will need at least a 10 for a nice chunk of cash (save for ) of 6 resources and 4 actions. Not bad.

  • By that same calculation the highest possible target rating on expert (save for some edge cases) will be:

    (Difficulty 6 x 2) + 8 + 5 (highest All In) = 25

    Once we reach that high, we can safely overachieve anything.


What's Going Wrong? And What We Can Do about It.

There are many things that make the overachiever archetype unattractive. Fortunately waiting long enough provided us with all the tools we need to make everything work.

Gathering Combo Pieces

"Rogues... the useless guys in the group that don't do much most of the scenario - just to pull off that one crazy stunt out of nowhere."

As a combo deck we first need to assemble our combo before we can go to town. Until then, combo rogues might feel quite underwhelming. As tutoring isn't really a thing in this can be quite difficult.

Fortunately got - as always - the right tool for the job. Enter Mr. "Rook". He is our ally of choice and mitigates some of our tutoring needs. We always dig by 9 to get the biggest chance of finding our combo pieces. We don't care if we find our weakness. We would find it in the next 10 minutes anyway.

Lack of Recursion

Without the card recursion powers of red our entire combo is spent after one or two big actions. Well that is, until we cycle through our deck once completely. This wasn't really feasible until Shattered Aeons. Which brought All In and all the card draw we could ever want.

Meet your Archenemy:

Nothing feels worse than preparing all combo pieces, making sure our skill is high enough to cover all tokens, only to draw red and get a whole lot of nothing. But no more. Premonition is here to safe the day and tell us whether we should throw our weight around or not.

Discard and Random Discard

We need to assemble our combo in hand and are therefore vulnerable to hand disruption. These treacheries will remove crucial combo cards from our hand. Sadly we can do nothing against this. But due to the nature of our combo preventing us from ever ending our turn, once we are set to go, hand disruption will no longer be a concern.

Now that we have seen whats going on, whats going wrong and what we intend to do about it...lets look at the game plan.


Game Plan: Going All In.

10 XP to break them all. Our core plan is to play Double or Nothing together with the biggest mistake Matt Newman has likely ever made: All In (Seriously even bigger than making Dr. Milan Christopher not exhaust. And we all know he is the reason why every card since does...).
We proceed to win by 5 to draw two times 5 cards from our deck and return every weakness we find. If our deck is thin enough we are always guaranteed to cycle our deck and find the other copies of Double or Nothing and All In thus allowing us to combo on the next test.

Combo Sets

We aim to alternate between two combo sets.

One full combo set consists of:

I advise against mixing copies of Quick Thinking and "Watch this!", as the later cannot be used for tests. We use the Quick Thinking-Set on those and "Watch this!" on everything else, if able.

One set nets us +9 to any skill, increasing it to 12. This allows us to safely overachieve 1, 2 and 3 difficulty tests on normal without static boosts. "But Skeith isn't that wrong? 2 needs 14 and 3 needs 16 to oversucceed by your calculation." I hear you say. Let me introduce you to an often overlooked economy card: Daring Maneuver

Daring Maneuver is to overachievers what Lucky! is to anyone else. Instead of idly sitting in our hand waiting for us to fail a skill test, it sits there waiting for us to pass a skill test, but fail our targeted threshold. It nets us +2 to our skill value after the token is revealed.
Remember: Our targeted skill value assumes 100% success rate. This fine card let's us under perform our skill value to let us cover everything up to a -3 token for example and still be safe should we draw a -4 or -5.
Even better: unlike Lucky!, because we aim for a +4 or +5 threshold, should we miss the mark by 4 we will still succeed the test with 0 or +1 allowing us to use BOTH copies at once should we feel the need to reach our desired threshold. And everytime we dont need them, we saved two or four bucks that would have been spent on reaching 100%.

So with both copies in hand and a skill value of 12 we safely play for 1, 2 or 3 difficulty skill checks.
For everything higher we will spent cash on boosters if necessary. The low difficulty test provide the necessary cash to crack higher difficulties with the money we made off of "Watch this!".

Premonition changes the game completely as it lets us safely predict how much we need. Daring Maneuver becomes less valuable in that case.

Since both copies of Opportunist return to our hand every time, we have 5 cards in discard per set. This allows us to play 3 events between tests which will be recycled together with our combo set.

Going for the Loop

To achieve this we want the following game state, to reach infinite recursion:

  • Set #1 with 8 cards in our hand
  • ONLY Set #2 with 8 cards in the discard pile (from previous test)
  • No cards or one card (weakness) left in the deck
  • Remaining Assets and Events in our hand

Resolving the next skill test and commiting Set #1 will then reshuffle our discard into our deck and redraw Set #2 into our hand.
After the test is resolved Set #1 will go into discard, therefore returning the game state to what it was before. All for the small price of one horror. Rinse and repeat until your investigator goes mental.

For this to actually work you will need 10 xp for two copies of All In. There is no replacement for this and should be your first stretch goal.

A Word on Action Economy

One full cycle is done per two skill tests taken. This costs us two actions. Every Quick Thinking-set will give us 4 actions and two Swift Reflexes another 2 actions. This means that we gain 4 actions every full cycle or +2 actions per test we take.


Card Choices

The deck basically breaks down in 4 parts:

  • 2 Sets of 6 skills and 2 events
    that we will alternate so that each shuffle of the deck will refresh our combo.
  • 5 types of other events
    we will hold in our hand and weave into the combo as neccessary.
  • 10 assets
    that we are going to play to help our early game and to thin our deck to make cycling easier.

Combo Sets

These we already discussed earlier.

Toolkit Events

In addition to Premonition we have enough room to play 2 more events before we take the next test. It is important to never play more than 8 cards to the discard pile or we might fail to recover all combo pieces.

  • Backstab
    Sometimes we might need to remove a key threat from the board, but dont have Jenny's weapon on the board. Or we made the mistake of spending to little on it and ran out of ammo.

  • Intel Report
    Sometimes the game makes you pay to investigate. We might not want to pay. This card allows us to just buy the clues without investigating.

  • Elusive
    For teleporting around the map. More of a quality of life inclusion. We have infinite action, so we can walk anywhere we want. But believe me: Doing 6 cycles to generate enough actions isn't very funny.

  • 2x Swift Reflexes
    allows us to translate resources into extra actions. We will have more resources than we need. Any extra outlets will be helpful. We will be weaving these into the combo, increasing our net gain from +1 actions to +2 actions per skill test taken. This will make everything much less tedious and allow us more freedom in our action budgeting.

  • 2x Daring Maneuver
    nets us +2 or +4 towards the threshold that we can throw in if necessary. As stated earlier these safe us money. Every time we dont need to spent 2 resources to make a combo 100% safe, we effectively earned two more resources two spent elsewhere. Becomes less important once we start cycling Premonition.

Assets

9 of our assets will always stay on board thus reducing our deck from 33 to 24 cards.

  • Draw package:
    2x Pickpocketing, Lucky Cigarette Case
    Especially in the beginning we need to cycle through our deck fast and might not have our combo pieces handy yet. This allow us to draw three extra cards per round, provided there is an enemy around to profit from.

  • Economy package:
    2x Burglary
    provides early cash injections to help get our assets on the board and fund our initial "Watch this!"-Combo. Remember, you need 6 ressources on hand for "Watch this!" to reach full potential. Sometimes the game isn't kind enough to leave you with enough surplus. Good for us that we are always one Double or Nothing on Burglary away from 6 ressources. Best use a Quick Thinking set so that the cash is available for the next "Watch this!" set.

  • Tutor:
    2x Mr. "Rook"
    The only one-slot-asset we play two of. Yes one copy will sit in our hand uselessly but you really really WANT to either have both combo pieces or one copy of Mr. Rook on your starting hand. He lets you dig 9 cards deep to look for your next Double or Nothing or All In to make our deck that much more consistent.

  • Stat Booster:
    Streetwise
    Physical Training
    Together these two let us boost every single stat as needed. This allows us to crack the tough 4, 5 and 6 difficulty tests.

  • Body Armor:
    Fine Clothes
    Can always be useful depending on the scenario. Even better in overachiever. Every point we reduce the test strength by is 2 points of actual reduction in the test.

  • Weapons:
    Jenny's Twin .45s
    Our Weapon of choice. Play it for 10. Will be easily affordable and hold the whole scenario.

Note: We take one-offs there a second copy does not work by itself. This is usually not advisable, but this deck is way of script. We draw so fast and hard we dont need consistency. We need options instead of dead copies cluttering up our hand.


IMPORTANT: Weaknesses

The informed reader might have noticed how All In nets us ten cards. I on the other hand always talk about 8 cards. This is due to how All In interacts with weaknesses and Double or Nothing.

Drawing through our deck will turn up both weaknesses eventually. Dealing with them will put them in our discard pile but All In always returns all weaknesses it draws to the deck. This will make it so that, after each cycle, you will always have a deck consisting of all weaknesses you have dealt with so far and nothing else. The next combo will draw those weaknesses BEFORE your discard is shuffled. This is important as Double or Nothing always works in two instances. So All In does not draw 10 and returns weaknesses, it draws 5 and returns them and does it again. The following draw pattern occurs with a ten card combo:

  • 1 Weakness in Deck:
    First draw: 1 Weakness, 4 other cards. 6 remaining.
    Second draw: 5 cards. 1 remaining.
  • 2 Weaknesses in Deck:
    First draw: 2 Weaknesses, 3 other cards. 7 remaining.
    Seconcd draw: 5 cards. 2 remaining.

In both cases the second draw has a really good chance to redraw at least one weakness and thus opening the chance of not redrawing Double or Nothing and All In. This would end our combo!

The draws are only safe if you have 1 weakness and 8 cards or 2 weaknesses and 6 cards respectively. In both cases the first draw will always draw half of your cards and the second will get the other half.

To ensure our combo we must make sure that no more than one of our weaknesses is dealt with. The other must stay ingame until we are done. This strongly depends on what your random weakness is. Should it be an event I recommend leaving Izzie ingame until you are nearly finished. In all other cases trash Izzie. Best case would be an enemy weakness: These will never ready once you have them evaded. Worst case would be Amnesia or Doomed. I never use the later myself and consider it more for roleplaying purposes.

Obviously if you manage to hold both weaknesses on board, be my guest and go nuts with 10 cards in each set.


Detailed Piloting

Phase 1: Mulligan Strategy and First Cycle

Our game plan consists of two parts. We set up in the early to midgame. In the lategame we combo the scenario to kingdom come and back. N times. There N is the sum all natural numbers greater 0.
But setup will take time. Time you might be inclined to spent picking up clues and progressing the scenario. Dont.
Our first order of business is to draw our deck once as fast as possible. Forget gathering clues, forget killing enemies, forget the agenda ticking. Only do these things if it nets you more cards or resources to set up faster. Evade enemies if necessary.
The agenda isn't as threatening as you think. Every scenario has at least 10 rounds or 30 actions + 10 Draw actions. Thats more than enough to draw the entire deck once theoretically (28 draws left in the beginning of the game), play all assets (10) and still have 2 actions left to combo off.

Finding your core combo pieces increases the setup tempo dramatically. Mulligan for Double or Nothing and All In. You may also keep Mr. "Rook" if he turns up. He improves your chances of subsequently finding the other two immensely.

Try to aggressively draw your deck and assemble your combo at least once. Core components and one or two "Watch this!" would be good, giving you money and with a little luck drawing you the other copies of the combo. Quick Thinking will also be okay. The bonus action will let you draw more cards as needed.

Go and find yourself a 1 or 2 test location, scenario card or enemy and get the ball rolling. Try to overachieve by at least 3. More is better. You try to get some money while at the same time drawing more cards. A 3 strength treachery might also work out, but will be more difficult to make work in the early game.

While you dig to find your combo, most of your assets will turn up eventually. Assets should be played in strict order to cover your needs:

  1. Mr. "Rook" always goes first. He is your best bet to get the combo together.
  2. Draw options second. Everything that lets you draw faster. The sooner you find your core combo the safer you will be.
  3. If you run low on cash Burglary to allow your 1 or 2 shroud locations to be useful to your early game plan.
  4. If money is fine Physical Training or Hard Knocks makes you enemy proof.
  5. Fine Clothes priority can increase should an important parley come up.

Until you have drawn through your deck, you will have to end some turns and therefore will discard down to 8 cards. If everything is going okay, you will finish turns with many more cards in hand than you have actions to play. While discarding keep in mind the above rationale for deciding which cards to keep. You obviously keep ALL combo pieces you find. Discard low priority assets first, then low priority events. Always keep all combo pieces plus 1 or 2 important assets to set up next round. Don't worry: everything you throw away will come back in every round until you have played every asset except the second copy of Mr. "Rook".

A word on Amnesia in this first phase. Should you have this weakness it will ruin your day.

  • There is a chance this will be one of your non-All In draws and discard your entire hand. Should that happen, you will have to shuffle and draw your entire discard manually because using Mr. "Rook" would just redraw Amnesia and return you to square one. Should there be another copy of the core combo left in the deck you can hope to find them first. Otherwise you will be in for a rought time I am afraid.
  • It might be an All In draw. In that case you are fine. You have a good chance of never actually drawing it.

Phase 2: Going Infinite

Once you have been through your deck, its time to profit and arrange the game state as described above. While your at it, you will start to triple or quadruple your actions. With careful planing you can go infinite as soon as you are through your deck once.

Thats why I told you that nothing matters but set up. As soon as you have everything in place, you will start alternating combo set 1 and set 2, always gaining you more of everything. Your turn will just never end.

This brings with it some implication:

  1. Enemies never ready. Hunters will never hunt you once evaded.
  2. Doom never ticks. You have all the time in the world.
  3. You will never draw new treacheries or enemies. Sometimes the scenario may throw some at you but thats it.
  4. You will never draw XP Enemies. Lucky for us this deck doesn't really need that much XP to function. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

I managed to stop the game as early as turn 3. By that time I had one enemy on the board, one locked door in play and one treachery in the discard. That's all the game managed to throw at me before the game lost due to time out.

Playing the Combo

  • Always play Premonition first. Seeing red? No? Good! Time to combo. Should it reveal the you can always waste an action doing something pointless.
  • Check whether you need to throw in one or two copies of Daring Maneuver.
  • Then play 0-2 more events from your hand.
    • Swift Reflexes most of the time to gain even more actions.
    • Elusive if you need to go somewhere and can't be bothered to play out 3+ actions to do so.
    • Intel Report to buy clues of a nasty location without going there.
    • Backstab to remove something if you have no ready weapon on board for some reason.
  • Pay the appropriate amount of money to the Premonition gods (cash boosters).
  • Next initiate the skill test with your 5 combo cards + 2 Opportunist and win.
  • All 8 cards (6 from the set +2 events of your choice) are now in your discard, your 2 Opportunist go back into your hand.
  • Cash in either 18 ressources or 3 actions and redraw the other 8 cards that you used on the last test.
  • You gain one horror from shuffling. Place that horror on your ally.
    • Should the ally die, replay the other copy from hand and play one less event in the next cycle to pick the discarded copy back up.

Congratualitions. If you don't waste your last action not taking a test, you can now proceed to clear every location, kill every agenda enemy and win. All in one turn.

Cracking 25

The highest assumed threshold on expert is 25 for a -8 token. Due to Premonition we always know its coming up. There are two ways to deal with it:

  1. Play Sure Gamble Base Skill 3 + 7 from Set + 2 from Opportunist+ 8 from the token = 20
    Against Difficulty 6x2 + Threshold 5 = 17
    We oversucceed by 8. More than enough.

  2. Use cash boosters.
    If we don't have Sure Gamble, we will have 1 or 2 copies of Daring Maneuver in hand depending on whether we needed one on the last test.
    Base Skill 3 + 7 from Set + 2 from Opportunist+ 2 or 4 from one or two Daring Maneuver = 14 or 16
    The missing 11 or 9 are bridged with cash boosters. Streetwise needs 8 or 6 ressources respectively. Core set boosters will take 11 or 9 ressources. The - 8 will not come up that often and we gain +18 ressources every two tests. We can easily pay for that.

Thanks to matt88 for pointing out that I was clear enough on the 25 threshold.


Spending XP

This deck has it's hardest time in the first couple scenarios. Most of the cards have been hand-picked to work with our combo, which we don't have yet. Everything works, but will be less consistent as we lack the massive draw power of All In. We need to get the first 13 xp ASAP. 10 XP make everything work. 3 XP for Streetwise makes our life less complicate by allowing us to boost . Getting those first XP can be tough, especially on higher difficulties you must be prepared to take them as they come. Gathering combo pieces to get the most out of them is crucial and blowing some of them to early can break your back. Another example is Intel Report. It should be used to clear tough 4 or 5 shroud location that hold 2 clues.

Core

These need to be bought earliest, either because they are crucial or their bonus is better the earlier you get them.

  • 1# 10 XP
    2x All In replaces 2x .45 Thompson
    Having two of these makes any weapon unnecessary. Should you somehow manage 10 XP on the first scenario ALWAYS buy these first.

  • 2# 5 XP
    Charon's Obol and Streetwise.
    The former is needed early to net more XP for the risk of taking it. The later covers two of our skills and lets us remove Hard Knocks.

  • Pre-10XP-Options: Should you have 7+ XP but not 10 you can buy Charon's Obol or Streetwise and one copy of All In. Streetwise is the safe route but wastes 2 XP on the next scenario. You should manage to get 10+ XP combined in the first two scenarios. If everything works out, you should have all 4 cards going into scenario 3.

High Priority

These are important but not crucial to the deck.

  • 1# 6 XP
    2x Sure Gamble replaces 2x Daring Maneuver
    Daring Maneuver on steroids. Usually this cards turns a failed test into a pass. We pass any test anyway, but it allows us to safe massive amounts on cash otherwise spent on 4, 5 or 6 strength tests or hard/expert difficulty tokens (-6 and up).

We can already beat whatever the game dishes out. So Medium and Low can be seen as quality of life upgrades.

Medium Priority

These basically save some of our infinite ressources by raising stats. Not really needed but saves us a ton of physically moving ressource tokens back and forth.

Low Priority


Why not Card X?

Many staple cards, that are good in general just don't fit the deck. This applies to almost all cards that exhaust. In this deck these cards become one time effects that never ready again. If they need slots, we could juggle them by replaying extra copies, but that would drain cash and actions fast for little gain. What exhaust cards I have taken are deemed useful for the setup phase.

Some Special Mentions:

Slip Away
It's a toolkit event that profits of Double or Nothing right? It exhausts an enemy for 3 turns.
This card was in in the first version, but it soon turned out to be a dead card most of the time. There are just not that many enemies around until we go infinite and never ready enemies again.

Eavesdrop
I first thought I can make this card work in the deck. Enemies wouldn't ready again anyway. Why not use them to pick up 4 clues. Same problem. It turns out it's still rather bad if the encounter deck doesn't get to throw enemies at you. That aside... there are usually no 4 clue locations in solo...


At the End of Time

Wow. That took longer than expected. Some final notes for those who managed to get this far:

Did we really go infinite just now?

Yes. But it is not 100% fail proof. It could still happen that you are the unlucky bastard who draws 3 s in a row. Premonition warns you about the first two. The third will make everything fall to pieces as you have no option to recover the two Premonition without clearing a test first. Still I think that unlikely enough to call this deck true infinite.

Can I play this in multiplayer?

Don't play this deck in multiplayer. Yes it will perform just as good as in solo. But it will not be much fun for the rest of the table to watch you win the scenario by yourself without them getting to go ever again.
And yes you can use Swift Reflexes to inject your turn into another investigators turn and go infinite there. That would be a very dick move and is not advisable.

Is this deck fun to play?

Depends entirely how you personally define fun. For me the deck was fun to cook up and fun to set up in phase 1 just to see how fast I could manage doing so. It was however a little tedious once everything was rolling.
I firmly believe this deck to be the strongest deck possible until another deck manages to completely stop the game in it's track. But the thought, that the game could basically do nothing to stop me, was rather defeating.
I had already won and just needed to finish taking all the actions and playing all the cards.

41 comments

May 01, 2019 Dont Blink · 1

This was a joy to read but 'watch this' doesn't have an intellect icon. I really wish it did too.

May 01, 2019 Skeith · 316

Thank you. Yeah it doesn't, that is why I wrote to opt for quick thinking for intellect and watch this! for everything else. It worked out fine most of the time.

Oh and I forgot to write: One can always investigate empty locations to get more actions.

May 01, 2019 matt88 · 542

Excuse me, but there are a few things I don't understand. First, you don't explain which cards the Sets consist of. Secondly, how exactly do you crack a difficulty-25 skill test? I also don't really understand how Burglary helps you. If I got that right, you said you use Burglary and commit Double or Nothing and Watch This! for a net gain of 15 resources, but Watch this! doesn't have an Intellect icon so it can't be commited on an Intellect test. Am I missing something? Did I get something wrong? Explain that to me if you please. Thanks.

May 01, 2019 Skeith · 316

@matt88 no problem. The sets are described under "card choices" -> "combo set". It consists of 5 skills plus premonition and 2 events of your choice.

Burglary is only an example on how to calculate the skill target. And you are quite correct you cannot commit watch this to it. I made a mistake in the example. It was late last night. I will change that tomorrow to quick thinking.

A 25 check would be cracked by base skill of 3 plus 7 (double or nothing, all in, unexpected courage, 2 quick thinking) plus 2 from opportunist. Thats 12. You then play sure gamble changing -8 token to +8. You now have 20 skill against a 17 threshold, winning by 8 (the difficulty is actually 12, 17 is with oversuccess in mind).

If you dont have sure gamble you go full cash boost. 12 from skill set another +2 or +4 from 1 or 2 daring manoveur plus 9 from cash booster (6 for streetwise, 9 for core set booster). You still gained 18 ressources on the last test you passed.

Burglary mainly helps to get the first cash inject should you not have enough ressources to fund the first round of watch this. You really want that first round to yield the full 24 ressources.

May 01, 2019 matt88 · 542

Ah, I see. That helps, but I'm still a little confused. How do you expect to get any value out of Burglary on Expert before you start using your combo?

May 01, 2019 Skeith · 316

It's only there to provide 6 ressources once and only if you have 0-5 ressources left. It' s a failsafe for then you have your combo in hand (the quick thinking set) but not enough ressources to put 3 ressources on both watch this in the next shuffle. in that case you go look for a shroud 1 or 2 location and use the combo there. 3 base skill + 9 from the set + 2 from Daring Maneuver is 14. the location will have 12 or 14 target threshold. Neting you +4 action + 10 cards and the 6 ressources you need to fund the next "Watch this!"-Set. You need it to gain the full 24 ressources to fund harder skill test and to play out any left over assets.

May 01, 2019 Yellow_Peril · 1

So does the horror from the deck cycling go on Jenny or Mr Rook?

May 01, 2019 Skeith · 316

@Yellow_Peril Always on Mr. Rook or Red-gloved man respectively. Once they die we take an action to replay them.

I added a section on how to crack 25 thresholds. Hope that helps.

On another note. The deck just cleared devourer below on expert by stopping the ritual on turn 5. 27 xp in all with two mental trauma. Dunwich is next. I will clear them all on expert with the same deck. As you can use TFA to buy off trauma it should work fine.

May 03, 2019 lacavones · 1

Amazing combo. Exposes some broken combination that I believe it shouldn't happen. But for the sake of good fun and balance how to have a house rule to stop the infinity combo without banning or changing any of the cards?

One way I was thinking is to limit the drawing empty investigator deck rule to happen only during the draw of the upkeep phase at stage 4.4. To something like this:

"4.4 Each investigator draws 1 card and gains 1 resource. In player order, each investigator draws 1 card. An investigator with an empty investigator deck shuffles his or her discard pile back into his or her deck, then draws the card, and upon completion of the entire draw takes one horror. . Once those cards have been drawn, each investigator gains 1 resource. "

Could this work without breaking the game?

May 03, 2019 Skeith · 316

I am not sure that works. It makes certain scenarios that actively mill the investigator deck incredibly harsh.

The List of Taboos from the recent FAQ addresses part of the combo in making Quick Thinking a limit 1 per skill test card. But that wouldn't really help either. One could just add the other copy to the "Watch this!" set.

Personally - if I wanted to "fix" the combo - I would probably target All In and make it draw less cards max. Drawing 3 cards max would already limit how many cards you could safely cycle with each shuffle.

Another way would be to make the horror from shuffling direct horror. But that wouldn't really be a problem for us, as you could always use Liquid Courage and Emergency Cache to remove any amount of horror from your investigator. An earlier version of this deck contained both cards. If you do not like replaying allies all the time, you could always switch some of the events for one copy of each. Liquid Courage clears 3 horror with one combo and Emergency Cache adds unlimited charges to Liquid Courage.

May 03, 2019 pneuma08 · 15

Cumulative horror for reshuffling your deck? 1 horror for the first reshuffle, 2 for the second, etc. You would need some way to keep track somehow but that shouldn't be too hard.

Another idea would be a total cap on # of actions on a player's turn. 6 is probably reasonable since that's kind of what Borrowed Time and Ace in the Hole are going for, although if we want to be generous (and assume someone is going for both) I doubt any non-infinite decks will go above 10. Again, keeping track would be annoying but only for very specific decks that have the potential to even hit the limit.

May 03, 2019 lacavones · 1

@SkeithI think you are right, my first draft is a failure :(

Other possible 'fixes':

  • add "remove from the game" or "once per game" in case of success on some of the key cards, like Quick Thinking

Or a little extra on the drawing rules:

  • If an investigator with an empty investigator deck needs to draw a card, that investigator shuffles his or her discard pile back into his or her deck, then draws the card, and upon completion of the entire draw takes one horror and lose all remaining actions and immediately end his or her turn.

I personally like this drawing change. You can even pretend that makes a bit of sense that the investigator is kind phase-out from the mental stress of running out of new ideas and tools.

The combo is real! Good and super strong, I just feel like that some fare adjustment has to be made to keep it possible for a healthy multiplayer or solo play experience without breaking it.

May 03, 2019 Djhuti · 251

I think the simplest way to reign in infinite combos would be to make the horror from shuffling your discard pile into your deck direct horror.

May 03, 2019 Skeith · 316

@Djhuti I advise you to review the Liquid Courage/Emergency Cache combo. it basically nets you -2 horror per action spent and allows us to remain at 0 horror on all cards without ever running out of charges as Liquid Courage is as most early cards non-exhaustive.

It was in the first version of this deck but was cut to make room for more toolkit events as allies can tank non-direct horror just as well. If the horror were direct I would just put those two in and be all set again.

@lacavones the first option would break Quick Thinking and Ace in the Hole. Ace in the Hole especially is one of the few cards does better than other classes (compare to the similar Cryptic Research). Making them once per game would really upset the balance, again refering to who already got most of the cherries in their class anyway (Best non-combo draw. best tutor, best damage per ressource cards, best clue per ressource cards, they basically can name a best or at least second best option for every problem in the game).

Rogue has these super strong but exceptional cards and subpar combo pieces that only get good then played just right. Remember how bad Quick Thinking and Double or Nothing are if you don't use them right. Quick Thinking is just one and a bonus effect IF you are really good. Double or Nothing is actually bad to play out (netting you 0 to -5 bonus to the test) and is dead in your hand if you can not beat the odds somehow. Making them once per game would need some serious rebalance to make them worthwhile still (and Ace in the Hole is already 0 cost and fast, nothing to improve but the yield).

On ending the term immediately I again think that that would make milling scenarios particular hard, as those already punish you for and by emptying your library.

May 03, 2019 pneuma08 · 15

If I'm understanding correctly, the cycle could be broken by having All In be removed from the game after use.

That would probably the least disruptive solution.

May 03, 2019 Skeith · 316

You are correct. That is why I said that the card was a mistake. Making the card exceptional works too. One copy per deck isn't enough to close the loop.

Thank you everyone for the kind words. And I will probably take it as a compliment that it took the discussion only 2 days to shift towards how broken the combo is. :D

May 04, 2019 Fishiste · 2

Just a question: how do you draw more than 5 cards with all in? Does double or nothing ignore the max 5 cards?

May 04, 2019 Skeith · 316

It does not. But it does resolve the result of a passed skill test twice. All In as a card adds its effect to the skill test. The skill test is then resolved twice, not the card itself and thus draws 5 cards two times. Hope that helps.

May 04, 2019 Schielman · 2

Hard Knocks and Physical Training do not allow you to boost every stat. You want Arcane Studies instead of Physical Training. Also, why the infinite combos in a cooperative card game?

May 04, 2019 Skeith · 316

Physical Training is there to complement Streetwise. They do indeed cover all the stats. Hard Knocks is there for the first scenarios to improve odds of being able to boost strength and to be able to boost agility. It becomes obsolete after your first 13 XP.

As to the why... because I can? Because there is a beauty to it, to a perfect machine? Mostly because I was looking for the best possible way to overachieve consistently and that just happened to also create an infinite loop. Premonition keeps your gambit from failing, recursion allows you to keep doing what the deck does best.

Yes I would not use it in a multiplayer game but it does work there as well. It just happens to scale perfectly with both player count and difficulty. It would not be fun for everyone else. But for solo I find it perfectly acceptable to go infinite.

May 09, 2019 RaahqMcMupfel · 1

okay, i have read through the description 2 times, skipped over it 5 times and for the love of god i can't figure out where and why you're getting back cards from your discard and why that causes you to take one horror

May 09, 2019 Skeith · 316

It is a basic rule from core rulebook.

You draw cards from your deck until there are non remaining. Once you would draw a card from an empty deck, your discard is shuffled into your deck, you take one horror for doing so and then draw the card.

With All In comboed like this you will draw your entire deck by turn 3-4. You will then start to shuffle your discard per basic rules.

I am working right now and don't have the rules handy so I can not give you the exact page. Sorry I didn't think it necessary to mention basic rules for the working of the deck. I will add a paragraph later.

May 09, 2019 RaahqMcMupfel · 1

Wow, a dozen of campaign plays and hundreds of hours sunk into this game, but i have never heard or read this rule before. Thanks for the clarification!

May 09, 2019 Skeith · 316

Just remembered that ArkhamDB has a rules section. It is under "Draw Action" the last bulletin:

  • If an investigator with an empty investigator deck needs to draw a card, that investigator shuffles his or her discard pile back into his or her deck, then draws the card, and upon completion of the entire draw takes one horror.

Hope that helps.

May 09, 2019 Alogon · 19

I just hope Matt Newman doesn't ban this perversion of the game by nerfing the individual cards, but by changing the rules around deckout and reshuffle.

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

May 09, 2019 Fishiste · 2

After thinking and talking with friends about it, I really believe All In isn’t the issue but Double or Nothing is. It shouldn’t pass the draw cap and is the one that multiply ressources, cards drawn and actions all together. All in is a great card that does cost 5 xp. Drawing 5 cards (or less but then without weaknesses) at some conditions isn’t by far scandalous. Drawing ten because of a basic card that also will give you extra actions and money is something quite different.

Also, why making it personal? Any designer may make a mistake. If Matt Newman (who wasn’t the lead designer of core set so no he isn’t responsible of Milan or at least not the only one) misses one card on a full cycle, you could present it differently than pointing your finger (« despite making an amazing game, he made here a mistake: no one is perfect even Matt Newman » is far less aggressive than « MN is responsible of all mistakes in this game, he is!) »). Just saying!

May 09, 2019 Skeith · 316

Does it really come across as that aggressive? That wasn't my intention at all. I really enjoy this game quite a lot and didn't mean any offense by it. If that is the case I will change that later. I just think (and so do many others according to what I read on this page) that Milan is op because he is non-exhaustive which skews the meta in his favor indefinetely. I don't thing there was any real challenge to his position until Mr.Rook came along recently (And he is broken in a lot of other ways in my opinion). And All In is the same, not because of itself, but because of how it shifts the meta and opens plays that were previously unthinkable. Any deck can profit from it.

That is why I do disagree with your point. It is the other way around. Double or Nothing isn't the problem. The card by itself does make any test more difficult outside of 1 difficulty tests there it breaks even. Some of the reviews even declare it a plain bad card, as it does nothing and even hurts you in most situations. And the balance in a combo was just fine until All in came along. Yes +4 actions and +18 ressources seems like a lot but it was only a one time thing, if one managed to assemble everything, which by itself only happens very rarely and comes at the cost of underperforming while you sit on your cards.

All In on the other hand is a great card just by itself. It is always helpful and can only make things better regardless of the situation. I stress again that the card itself is perfectly fine for its price tag. It just upsets the balance if the game and was therefore a mistake to print in this way. I firmly believe it would have served its role just as well as 3 XP exceptional card without upsetting the existing balance.

May 09, 2019 Skeith · 316

I changed it now. And apologises for the typing errors. I cant edit posts it seems and english isnt my native tongue.

May 09, 2019 Fishiste · 2

Thank you for your answers. Because Double or nothing exists, everytime a card would trigger after winning a test, you’ll have to check if DoN won’t allow to abuse it. So it really is the problematic card I still believe. But I’m quite sure you’re deck will invite a ruling about the draw cap (as an absolute for the whole sequence), which is the simplest thing to do to stop the loop without errata. Well done anyway.

May 10, 2019 Arrdet · 13

I agree with @Fishiste that the problem here is Double or Nothing as it limits future card design. If anything were done to break this up it should probably target Double or Nothing with the side benefit of opening up future design space.

May 11, 2019 dgn · 2

@Fishiste and @Arrdet you're right that Double or Nothing is the biggest target for abuse. But it's also a card that really epitomizes the flavor of the rogue class and is loved by many players (though not particularly by me). Banning this card would probably make a lot of players unhappy.

Of the solutions mentioned so far, the one I like best is making the horror penalty for shuffling your discard pile be cumulative, i.e. each time you shuffle you take 1 more horror than the previous time. This would stop infinite combos without increasing the penalty for the first time you reach the end of your deck in a scenario. Since there may be some cards which say "prevent all horror" or something, they should probably specify that this horror can't be prevented or cancelled.

May 12, 2019 yepesnopes · 1

This is a co-op game. No erratas are needed. If someone comes to your table with a so-called broken deck, you can always ask him/her politely to go play solo somewhere else.

May 12, 2019 Skeith · 316

@yepesnopes my point exactly. One should simply not play such a deck at a multiplayer table. One does not invite his friends over just to play quasi-solo. That would be missing the point of playing mp in the first place.

@dgn That would fix the issue only on paper. I am currently drafting a Sefina Rousseau including Fearless. Its upgrade can heal 4 horror per copy per test. Including Holy Rosary and The Red-Gloved Man one could cycle 14 times without dying to horror if the horror is not direct and 8 times even if it is. Thats 56 or 32 gained actions. That is plenty to finish a scenario, I dare say.

May 12, 2019 LeonardQuirm · 27

Neat work! If we're talking about how to prevent combos like this, I don't think the individual cards are the right thing to look at - the Ace in the Hole recursion infinite deck didn't use any of the same cards as I recall. What they did have in common though was cycling the deck over and over again.

Personally if I was going to implement a change to stop it, I'd change the rule for resetting the deck - maybe cumulative horror as suggested above, or make the cost one mental trauma instead of one horror (although that could be too punishing for characters like Minh), or maybe just say you can't reset a deck more than once per turn/round.

I'm not sure that catches excessive combo decks using Survivor direct recursion, but I think it'd deal with most Rogue ones.

On the other hand, I'm not going to play with this deck, and it's always fun to see someone come up with something like this, so the other argument is...who needs a fix?

May 15, 2019 RaahqMcMupfel · 1

We always assumed that once the deck is empty it stays that way. It happened a few times and i like our misinterpretation more than the official ruling

May 15, 2019 Yellow_Peril · 1

"Remove the top X cards of your deck from the game." If this were a cost of shuffling your discard pile into your deck when you've run out of cards, it would stop combo decks like this from being infinite. It's just a matter of tuning X. I'd say no less than 5, and no more than 10.

It shouldn't be too devastating to the average Joe who happens occasionally to run through his deck once a game.

It means not having to decide which card in the combo is "broken" and errata it. (And then find out you have to errata other cards at later dates when new combos becomes viable.)

The cumulative horror cost looks neat, but might be tricky to keep track of. And as pointed out, can be soaked/healed for quite some time.

The mental trauma idea would be harsh on the average Joe. It also has no effect on standalone scenarios or campaign finales.

May 15, 2019 Skeith · 316

@RaahqMcMupfel Well it is in the basic rules for the draw action and it would kill the investigators rather fast in some scenarios. Not to mention investigators like Minh Thi Phan who are all about cantriping their deck most of the time. And remember: The card draw in the upkeep phase is mandatory. And the rules for upkeep have no mention of what to do if your deck was empty and would not automatically reshuffle.

@Yellow_Peril Same point. What to do with cards specifically designed to facilitate decks like Minh Thi Phans. I usually go through the entire deck like 6-8 times in a normal length scenario (without infinite combo shenanigans).

Remember that after your first pass most of your assets stay in game. That alone lowers most decks to ~20-22 cards unless you go light on assets. With a healthy hand of 6-8 thats basically 12-15 cards to keep cycling. Thats not that hard even for the average joe. Analytical Mind, Grisly Totem and a core game skill card alone cause you to draw 4 cards per round. Not to mention cards like Cryptic Research and Preposterous Sketches which you totally should use in Minh Thi Phan. Not to mention the spoilered Blood-Rite and cards like Ancient Stone encouraging you to draw as much as you can.

And this playstyle has nothing to do with going infinite. Minh Thi Phan in fact has neither access to True Survivor or any combo cards.

May 21, 2019 NotSure · 5

"We Double or Nothing a Quick Thinking (...) for a nice chunk of cash (save for ) of 6 resources and 4 actions." How do you get 4 actions out of one Quick Thinking ? 2x1 = 2 ... I must have missed something here

May 21, 2019 Skeith · 316

Good Catch.

It isn't mentioned in that example but it assumes you play both copies of Quick Thinking to get maximum effect from Double or Nothing. You would do the same with "Watch this!".

I changed that example once and must have been thinking about using both copies as I never play them as singletons.

May 21, 2019 NotSure · 5

@SkeithYeah, Iassumed that after reading the whole text, but you should edit it since it's the first example and you math seemd off from the start ;)

While this is indeed game breaking, I see two major flaw in the whole thing. Cards like Doomed (you convieniently leaved it aside for 'roleplaying' reasons) or Beyond the Veil that would stop you immediately on your track should you draw before activating the combo (and you recommend Charon's Obol on top of that ;)

It's nice to break the game, but in some scenarios the game could break you really hard.

May 21, 2019 Skeith · 316

@NotSure Yeah I don't really enjoy Doomed on principal. I don't find the idea of being killed eventually regardless of how well I play very enjoyable. You are right of course. We have a chance of killing us with that. Keep in mind though that we only draw about ~10 cards manually in any scenario. We might still be lucky enough to draw Doomed only with our All Ins! On the other hand... Mr. "Rook" would kill us fast... oh well, it didn't factor in my building strategy anyway.

Regarding Beyond the Veil I have only one play to throw at it: Mr. "Rook" and Fine Clothes together give us exactly 11 health. Just enough to survive one copy of it. Given the fact that we will never draw more than one copy of Beyond the Veil before stopping the clock that would be enough. Should we somehow get only one point of damage before hand we would be killed, yes.

Beyond the Veil appears for first time in the third scenario of dunwich. To handle it well we would need a copy of The Red-Gloved Man to up our health total to 13. That would give us 2 damage we can take before dying to the treachery. Question would be if 15 xp in the first two scenarios of Dunwich is feasable on average. I would say yes.

But talking chances: Usually the deck is stopped by turn 5-6. Sometimes even earlier. That would mean only 4-5 treachery cards are ever drawn. It's a good chance that we never actually see Beyond the Veil at all. In fact I never saw it playing Dunwich the other day.

To summarise:

  • A copy of Beyond the Veil would need to be one of the first cards the mythos deals us.
  • Fine Clothes and The Red-Gloved Man must be in the last three cards of our deck. We would not be able tutor them with Mr. "Rook" without shuffle killing ourselves.
  • 1 or 3 damage respectively on Jenny. We would not total 11+ health with our assets otherwise.

I find our chances not so bad after all. I know it is not perfect but the odds are heavily in our favor nonetheless.

And of the top of my head I can't remember any other game mechanic that would come this close to killing us outright.