Card Reviews · ArkhamDB

Try and Try Again

Ever fail so hard you win?

Drawing Thin + Rabbit's Foot = Even Better

(My review needed to be two hundred words to post. So I wrote a useless blurb on the bottom of my review. Honestly this process seems kinda of silly all things considered. I mean If someone can articulate a thought in a concise way without a long winded review wouldn't that be superior.)

6/27/19

redtitan · 60

There's been several discussions about this. Unfortunately, Take Heart and Try and Try Again do not combo together. Try and Try Again is a response to a skill test failing that occurs in Step 6, when you determine success and failure. You apply the results of failure (e.g. Take Heart) in Step 7. So you could return Take Heart in Step 6 using Try and Try Again, but you wouldn't get any benefit from Take Heart in the process. The upgraded Grisly Totem on the other hand does apply during Step 7 and will combo with Take Heart. — StyxTBeuford · 13049 6/27/19

Isn't the wording similar as in Grisly Totem, so Matt Newmanns response that Grisly Totem triggers in Step 7 applies to "Try and try again" as well? — Django · 5155 6/27/19

Sry, ignore my last comment. I hadn't read the detailed answers to Grisly Totem. — Django · 5155 6/27/19

Take Heart

Ever fail so hard you win?

Take Heart + Try and Try Again = Fail

Drawing Thin + Rabbit's Foot = Even Better

6/27/19

redtitan · 60

Don't forget Oops!, "Look what I found!" or Live and Learn for a double win! — Venti · 1 10/6/20

Blackjack

While level 0 blackjack struggles to be seen better than a knife, I became a believer of this level 2 head bopper in our TCU campaign. Joe Diamond rushing in with a machete while Diana had his back with this was quite the dream.

Currently with the taboo list, this costs the same as the machete as well. But blackjack favors the different playstyle. I think this weapon delivers when wielded by secondary guardians who aren't going to be primarily engaging and have clue-gathering or other casting to do with their other actions.

Compared with other weapons at this level, the .45 automatic might seem to be a better bet. Not damaging allies and ammo limitations aren't nothing though. Additionally, for resource-hungry decks, the 2 cost blackjack allows for a better turn 1 setup, is playable in the later game when you find yourself naturally low on cash.

6/25/19

joshvarela · 12

I consider all guardians besides Carolyn as primary fighters and Carolyn can't take this... — Django · 5155 7/5/19

Great in Joe! — MrGoldbee · 1487 9/6/21

Grisly Totem

FYI:

Greetings,

Both Grisly Totem (3) and Take Heart have the same triggering condition—“If the skill test fails”—which occurs during step 7 of the skill test, when the effects of the successful/failed test resolve. Because both effects trigger at the same time, you may decide the order in which they resolve. You may therefore choose to resolve Take Heart before Grisly Totem, then return Take Heart to your hand if you so choose.

Cheers,

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Matthew Newman

Senior Card Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

mnewman@fantasyflightgames.com

6/24/19

dubcity566 · 111

Does this mean that Try and Try again also works with Take Heart? — Django · 5155 6/25/19

@Django No. Try and Try Again triggers "After a test is failed", i.e. ST6, before resolving Take Heart (ST7). — ak45 · 469 6/25/19

How does that make sense? Per the RR under the "If" section, the keyword "If" specifically applies explicitly between "Before" and "After" so I don't see how "If the skill test fails" can happen after "After the skill test is failed". Not only that but in the English, "fails" necessarily has to come before "is failed" since the latter is in the past tense. — pneuma08 · 26 6/26/19

It's not about the timing of "if" and "after", it's about what is being modified. Try and Try Again returns a committed card to your hand for a failed skill test before that card resolves with the failed skill test, during STP 6 when you determine success or failure. The "if" effects on Totem and Take Heart are STP 7, when you would apply effects based on the result of the skill test- in this case, if the test failed, you can get goodies from TH then return it toy our hand using the Totem, otherwise neither could trigger. — StyxTBeuford · 13049 6/26/19

To parse it down more simply: "when you would you fail" (eg Lucky) and "after you fail" (eg Try and Try Again) apply to Step 6 when you decide the outcome of the test. "If" is a response to a test that has already failed or succeeded, so it occurs in Step 7. — StyxTBeuford · 13049 6/26/19

But it's not "after you fail" (although I would still argue that "after you fail" has to apply after the event of failure as a consequence of failing) it's "after a skill test is failed". How is this not "a response to a skill test that has already failed"? You are using literally the same word in the same sentence construct to mean different things ("failed" - notably in the past tense). If this is true then the difference is between the things acting as a consequence of the determination of the success or failure of a skill test and the "test results" that happen as a consequence of the success or failure of a skill test. That means that there are consequences of the success or failure of a test that are not results, which are only defined as "consequences of success and/or failure for that test". So what makes Grisly Totem and Take Heart a consequence but Try and Try Again not a consequence? — pneuma08 · 26 6/26/19

Sorry, meant what makes Grisly Totem and Take Heart a result, but Try and Try Again not a result? Related, if this is indeed in ST.6 could you use Try and Try Again to return Dreams of the Deep to your hand to prevent failing a test? Could you also use Look What I Found (same trigger - "after you fail a skill test") on the same check to get 3 clues (2 from Look as a result of failing by less than 2, then Try to return Dreams to your hand and pass the test)? — pneuma08 · 26 6/26/19

Just read the FAQ related to this part of the skill test. The wording is actually very clear on the matter. — StyxTBeuford · 13049 6/26/19

Oh, the difference is because it's a Forced or Reaction ability. That makes some sense, basically because it's a trigger its effects are immediate before going to the next step. Grisly Totem here is a reaction ability as well but one with a different trigger that creates a delayed skill result. That's still crazy confusing though since the results also share the same condition, they're just not triggered, just conditioned by them. — pneuma08 · 26 6/26/19

It's not really about it being a reaction ability, it's just the difference between an effect that occurs due to the outcome of a test versus one that occurs during the determining of an outcome of a test. This thread included the exact part of the FAQ that explains it. https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/284308-take-heart/ — StyxTBeuford · 13049 6/27/19

So if I've understood this correctly, the reason you can't use all of Grisly Totem, Dreams of the Deep and Look What I Found together is because once you're resolving LWIF you've gone past step 6, where you determine whether the skill check passed or failed and into step 7. Like , the pass/fail only gets checked once and it's before that point? Have I followed that right? — bee123 · 31 6/27/19

The only reason why it occurs during the determination of the outcome of the test is because it's a reaction ability, that is, occurs immediately based on a trigger (where the trigger is the same determination used in ST.7; the difference is between it being a triggered reaction and a result determination) and more specifically it occurs during the determination step as an after-effect of said determination - see how this is totally counterintuitive and confusing? I have also submitted an rules question about how Try works with Dreams of the Deep since if it does work in ST.6 then that implies it could affect the outcome of the skill test and since Dreams is a net negative removing it could result in changing a triggered failure into a success. — pneuma08 · 26 6/27/19

Yeah, it seems — bee123 · 31 6/27/19

* weird, but a lot of skill check timing seems weird to me :) . I think I can see it though. TTA reacts to the determination about the skill check, so it doesn't interact with Take Heart. But Grisly totem does, because the second part of its text adds to the skill check result. I don't know about Dreams of the Deep and Try, though. "After"'s rules reference entry has "after the trigger has fully resolved" , so maybe it doesn't help because you've already made the determination at that point. But it doesn't seem clear-cut. I guess there aren't any other cards that can undo their own triggering conditions to compare it to! — bee123 · 31 6/27/19

Pushed into the Beyond

This and Corrosion from Carcosa has made me appreciate throwaway assets like Cherished Keepsake and Leather Coat even more. It's very scary to only have must-have assets in play with this card in the encounter deck.

6/23/19

bigstupidgrin · 84

Pushed into the Beyond and Crypt Chill can both be much safer with the two assets you mentioned, but neither help with Corrosion. Corrosion is better handled by keeping spare expensive items in your hand to feed it. — Death by Chocolate · 1489 6/24/19